For comparison, the CyKey wireless IR chord keyboard with a IR to USB
converter runs around US$160 (unit 1 price). If you are running a
laptop with an IR port, the chord keyboard alone is around US$102. (unit
1 price). Not sure how much of a discount we could get for
multi-unit orders.
(
http://www.bellaire.demon.co.uk/newcykey.htm) I've sent a set
of technical questions off to Chris Rainey at Bellaire.
The BAT chord keyboard for USB runs around $229 (unit 1 price). Not sure
how much of a discount we could get for multi-unit orders
(
http://www.infogrip.com/product_view.asp?RecordNumber=12). I
haven't contacted these people yet. Their mechanical design leaves
something to be desired, in my opinion.
At 07:21 AM 2/20/2006, John Sechrest wrote:
Philip Gust
<gust@NouveauSystems.com> writes:
% I'm following up with you about a quote for the NRE and
production
% costs to create a new batch of keysets. Will you be able to
get us
% something this week?
Here is how far I have gotten on the quote. It is a bit on the rough
side, given that we have been asking some people things with short
notice and information. However, I think that it bounds the
problem.
I am glad to work with you to refine it. I just sent a copy of this
to jonathan last night as part of another email.
Let me know if I can help with anything.
Chording
keyboard quote - first pass
2006/2/13
Design and
build a chording keyboard in
the
Engelbart style that acts like a USB keyboard.
Power the
unit by USB.
I have
asked several people locally for a quick
estimate
of what it would take to build the
keyboard.
Keep in mind that these are
rough
estimates done quickly, so there is
some
error built into them. In an optimistic
world,
these are high prices, but to get
better
numbers would require a more detailed technical
discussion
about exactly what is being built.
The
building of a set of chording keyboards
comes with
several parts. First,
building
the base,
keys and case. Secondly, building
a usb
based micropocessor controlled keyboard.
Then
building the software to make it work.
Along the
way, it may be worth getting some
formal
drawings of the keyboard might be worth doing.
In
fabricating the keyboard, there are several approaches that
are
possible. The initial solution is to use plastic injection
molding.
To do this, you need to have a set of plans which
describe
the parts, and then produce a set of molds.
This can
be expensive for a small number of units.
If there
are going to be less than 10,000 units made,
the
industry will use aluminum molds.
There is a
low cost mold manufacturer called ProtoMold
http://www.protomold.com which will do a part for less
than
$2000.
However,
if we are only going to be building 12 units, it is
cheaper in
the short run to just machine out with a CNC the
parts. We
have a local machine shop who works for $50/hour. He
suspects
it will take two hours per keyboard to put together a
set of 12
keyboards. ($100 for each set of parts)
Mechanical
design:
Work out
demensions and throw and mounting - 1 day
Spacers and
mounting configurations - .5 day
box selection -
1.5 day
Box mechanical
drawings + cutouts - 1 day
key cutting ->
1 day
Secondly,
after building the keyboard parts,
the
electronics needs to be defined and build.
A single
PC board with the switches directly attached
to the
board would be the cheapest pathway.
To build
that board, AO would need to:
Find a switch -
.5 day
Design a
mechanical switch on circuit board - .5 day
schematic , board
layout, photoplots - 1 day
testing - 1
day
Software -
.5 day
Usb device
selection - 3 days
processor and
part selection - 1 day
power supply
-> USB power -> Design - .5 day
12 days @
$95 = 9120
circuit
Board - $700 (makes up to 30 boards)
Parts - 3 * 5 + 5 + 2 + 3 => ~~
35 (gross guess)
keyboard
parts - $100
assembly -
$55
Shipping -
$15
NRE =
$9820
The total
cost of engineering and building a keyboard
would be
96 hours of work. Given the briefness of the
discussions, this number can be refined. But given this
as an
approximation, the cost of doing that would
be
$9820.
Amortizing
the cost of the work over several keyboards
would
reduce the cost per keyboard. Having built one,
it is not
substantially more expensive to build 10.
It does
not make sense to do plastic injection molding
for a run
of ten, but it would be able to cut the
costs for
this process if we built 50. But assuming
a hand
machining mechanism, then the amortization might
look like:
Per unit
cost = $35 55 15 = $205 + board costs + keys ($100)
Quantity 1 = 9820 -> $9820 each
Quantity 5 = 10345 -> $2069 each
quantity 10 = 10870 -> $1087 each
Quantity 50 = 15770 -> $315 each
Quantity
100 = 23120 -> $231 each
Quanity 500 = 76320 -> $152
each
----
Auxilary information:
Drawing of it as it is designed now - Tom
Winslow
http://www.wintechdesignllc.com
tom_winslow@wintechdesignllc.com
3 days $ 576/day -> $1728
Re-engineering mechanical design of the keyboard
to be
manufacturable and plastic moldable - $8,000 to
$10,000
http://www.wintechdesignllc.com
tom_winslow@wintechdesignllc.com
Board design, hardware layout, programming by
Alpha Omega
http://www.ao.com
541 754-1911
Machining by Kenbo -
http://www.kenbo.org
% At 04:08 PM 2/12/2006, Philip Gust wrote:
% >At 03:11 PM 2/12/2006, John Sechrest wrote:
% >
% >
% >>Philip Gust <gust@NouveauSystems.com> writes:
% >>
% >> % > One of the places we got stuck was
the need for a driver to
% >> % > coordinate the 5 bits from one
keyboard with the 3 bits of the mouse.
% >> % > That was something that we did not
process very well.
% >>
% >> % I'm a little confused by it myself. We
wrote some specialized Java
% >> % code that processed input from the keyset, and
allowed Java to
% >> % perform its normal mouse handling. I
imagine that the same would be
% >> % done for any other programming language.
It's not clear what the
% >> % advantage would be of combining keyboard and
mouse handling into a
% >> % single driver, especially in a windowed
environment.
% >>
% >> Appearently NLS used the three mouse keys as
modifiers,
% >> so you could get 8 states from the right hand to
modify
% >> key stroke on the left hand...
% >>
% >> so if you have
% >>
% >> 10110 000
% >> 10110 100
% >> 10110 010
% >> 10110 001
% >>
% >> The the five keys on the left are generating
different keys based
% >> on the keys on the right side.
% >
% >I can see how there may be advantages to combining mouse and
% >keyboard input into a single driver. That way it can be
used with
% >any application. The challenge I can foresee is trying
to do that
% >under multiple OSes and their window system environments, and
making
% >it user or application configurable. It would also be
nice for such
% >a driver provide a way to emulate a keyset/mouse combo using
a
% >standard keyboard/mouse with an appropriate modifier (similar
to an
% >embedded numeric keypad using the numlock key)
% >
% >Up to now we've been treating the "vintage" keyset
as an auxiliary
% >input device, and allowing the AugTerm application to read
the
% >device through a set of APIs and interpret keypad/mouse
input. For
% >example, on Linux, the vintage keypad appear as a USB
joystick and
% >we read it through /dev/input/js0. The advantage is
that we can
% >leverage existing drivers on various OSes.
% >
% >There's also a separate question of what type of USB device
the
% >keyset should identify itself as, and if that should be one
of the
% >standard types then which one.
% >
% >
% >
% >
% >> % > It is possible that Gary might be
persuadable to do it off the clock.
% >> % > However, I do not see that happening
on the time schedule you
% >> % > are laying out. I will ask gary
tomorrow if the things that he
% >> % > is interested in stepping up to this
project by end of May or
% >> % > not.
% >>
% >> % Thanks for taking this to them. There are
certain promotional
% >> % opportunities that AO might be able to take
advantage of were it to
% >> % do this on a pro-bono basis. However, I
understand about the funding
% >> % issue as well.
% >>
% >> Yes, there are some wins.
% >>
% >>
% >> % In that case, could you find out what it would
cost
% >> % to get something ready to bid out for
manufacturing in May or June by
% >> % completing the hardware and electrical design,
and building a
% >> % prototype?
% >>
% >> Yes, I can get Gary to put together a quote for
putting together
% >> 12 units. Is that the number that you want?
% >
% >I'd suggest breaking the quote down into two parts. One
is the NRE
% >required to get it ready for manufacturing. The other
is the cost
% >of manufacturing certain numbers of units. It's hard to
say how
% >many we may need over time. As more people use the
restored
% >NLS/Augment system or the next generation system being
planned, they
% >may want to have a keyset. Some people may also want
one purely as
% >a collectable. In that case, we would like to be able
to sell them
% >one. I recommend quoting an initial 12, and then
incremental units
% >of 48 keysets (or whatever volume makes sense).
% >
% >
% >
% >> % We can probably get someone to do the drivers on
a
% >> % volunteer basis if you can take care of the
hardware end. I'd expect
% >> % that if we found funding, this would be work for
hire that would be
% >> % whoever funded it.
% >>
% >>
% >> You will have to help me constrain the project
some.
% >> Do you want us to replicate directly what is
there?
% >> or do you want us to make some optimization for
price?
% >> Or do you want us to make any evolutionary steps
for it?
% >
% >Optimizing for price would be fine. It would be great
if we could
% >retain the look and feel of the original, for those who may
want one
% >as an historical artifact. No need, though, to go
through the
% >effort of a 15-pin analog output that must be converted to a
game
% >port and again to a USB interface, for example. As to
what type of
% >USB device it would appear as, we'll need to get a bit of a
% >technical discussion going on that.
% >
% >
% >
% >
% >
% >> % I'll hope to hear from you again in the next few
days.
% >>
% >> I will talk to gary on monday and try to have you
some
% >> details with in a day or so.
% >
% >Thanks!
% >
% >
% >>-----
% >>John
Sechrest
. Helping people use
%
>>
. computers
and the Internet
%
>>
. more
effectively
%
>>
.
%
>>
. Internet: sechrest@peak.org
%
>>
.
%
>>
.
% >>
http://www.peak.org/~sechrest
% >
% >
% >Philip Gust
% >Nouveau Systems, Inc.
% >
% >phone: +1 650 961-7992
% >fax: +1 520 843-7217
% >
% >
% >mailto: gust@NouveauSystems.com
%
%
% Philip Gust
% Nouveau Systems, Inc.
%
% phone: +1 650 961-7992
% fax: +1 520 843-7217
%
%
% mailto: gust@NouveauSystems.com
%
%
-----
John Sechrest
. Helping people use
. computers
and the Internet
. more
effectively
.
. Internet: sechrest@peak.org
.
.
http://www.peak.org/~sechrest
Philip Gust
Nouveau Systems, Inc.
phone: +1 650 961-7992
fax: +1 520 843-7217
mailto: gust@NouveauSystems.com
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