Gary and John, (01)
I had hoped to be able to turn in a funding proposal to SRI by the
end of April. However, I have not yet received the technical
proposal from you that I need to do that. I'd like to have a phone
conversation today,l either before 10.30 or between 1.30pm and
4.30pm, to discuss how to move forward. Please let me know what
works best for you and what phone number I should use. (02)
At 11:33 PM 4/19/2006, Philip Gust wrote:
>To: NLS Restoration Technical Discussion <nls-technical@chm.cim3.net>
>From: Philip Gust <gust@NouveauSystems.com>
>Subject: Re: [nls-technical] chord keyset
>Cc: nls-technical@chm.cim3.net, Gary Oliver <go@ao.com>
>In-Reply-To: <E1FWS4P-000596-58@jas.peak.org>
>References: Your message of Wed, 19 Apr 2006 06:33:29 PDT.
><7.0.1.0.2.20060419062839.132eea58@NouveauSystems.com>
><E1FWS4P-000596-58@jas.peak.org>
>
>John,
>
>Thanks for the update. I do want to get a proposal written by end
>of month, so I'd like to do whatever I can to answer questions or
>resolve issues as soon as possible. If you'd like, we could arrange
>an evening or weekend phone call. Let me know if that's something
>that would work into your schedule, or whether we should just wait
>until Monday.
>
>At 10:51 PM 4/19/2006, John Sechrest wrote:
>
>>Hi Philip,
>>
>>I have a first pass from gary for the hardware and the software.
>>I would like to talk to you on the phone abuot things.
>>
>>I am at Innotech all day tomorrow and at the coast most of friday.
>>
>>Is this something that can wait a few days, or do we need to squeeze it
>>in to the current flow?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Philip Gust <gust@NouveauSystems.com> writes:
>>
>> % Gary,
>> %
>> % I hope that things aren't as hectic for you now. I'm planning out the
>> % next couple weeks of work on the project, and wanted to know when you
>> % might have the detailed technical proposal and quote ready. I'd like
>> % to include this information in the proposal to SRI. Also, please let
>> % me know whether my latest responses made sense, or whether we should
>> % try to have a live conversation to hash out these technical
>> % points. I can be available nearly any time at your convenience.
>> %
>> % At 03:59 PM 4/7/2006, Philip Gust wrote:
>> % >Gary,
>> % >
>> % >Thanks for the update. Customers can be such pesky creatures!
>> % >
>> % >At 02:58 PM 4/7/2006, Gary Oliver wrote:
>> % > >Unfortantely I have exhausted my time this week. We had an unscheduled
>> % > >visit from a customer that took an extra three days this
>> week and I just
>> % > >ran out of time. I have most of what I need to finish a quote, but
>> % > >haven't yet been able to meet with the design engineer responsible for
>> % > >the electronics. It will be the first thing I do next week.
>> % > >
>> % > >Regarding your questions about the USB cabling and switching: Our
>> % > >current plans are for a single cable from the device to the computer.
>> % > >This can be accomplished using an internal physical hub (ic)
>> or through
>> % > >a software "hub", depending on the choice of devices used to implement
>> % > >the USB. My understanding is that you want to plug a mouse into the
>> % > >device and the device into the computer. This will require
>> the device to
>> % > >accept an HID input mouse connection and then route the data as
>> % > >appropriate to either the internal state machine or through to the
>> % > >computer over the mouse "device" on the "hub." Your description of a
>> % > >"num lock" would imply we also plug in a normal keyboard? Or are you
>> % > >referring to a keyboard action on the chording device?
>> % >
>> % >On switching keyboard modes, we'd have to find an unused chord /mouse
>> % >combination to switch between standard and Augment
>> % >modes. Unfortunately, there are very few combinations that are not
>> % >already used by Augment (e.g. Keyset: XXXXX, Mouse: 00X, or Keyset
>> % >:?????, Mouse: 110 or 111 -- see
>> % >http://chm.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?NlsTechnical/KeysetMap). I had
>> % >envisioned some kind of separate non-transmitting toggle button
>> % >(similar to the NUM LOCK on a standard keyboard) to control this only
>> % >to make switching more obvious for users.
>> % >
>> % >My reference to allowing the mode to be toggled in software was based
>> % >on my understanding of standard keyboards, where the computer can
>> % >send commands to the keyboard, such as turning on the NUM
>> % >LOCK. Sorry that I didn't make that clear. I hadn't intend to add
>> % >reading input from a standard keyboard into the mix. This is
>> % >completely optional. A typical use case for this capability might be
>> % >to have The AugTerm application toggle this on/off when it
>> % >gains/looses focus. No big deal, though, to have the user toggle
>> % >this manually.
>> % >
>> % >For the standard keyboard, we'll also need to determine whether and
>> % >how to map chords/buttons to standard keys and combinations that
>> % >aren't possible otherwise, such as the control characters, edit keys,
>> % >etc. One idea would be to adopt Microsoft's keyboard conventions for
>> % >physically impaired users, such as sticky shift, etc. Jonathan and I
>> % >will discuss this issue when we meet next week. What ideas
>> can you suggest?
>> % >
>> % >On the
>> % >
>> % > >Our interpretation from John was that we wanted to be able to filter
>> % > >mouse "keystrokes" as hints to the operating mode of the device. I
>> % > >wasn't aware we would need to interpret keyboard strokes as well.
>> % > >
>> % > >I do think it would be "cleaner" to avoid adding extra
>> switches, so long
>> % > >as we can nail down what switch "gestures" we want to enable the
>> % > >appropriate state changes.
>> % > >
>> % > >
>> % > >Sorry for the delay. I realize this is crunching things for you.
>> % > >Unfortuantely, I no control over the scheduling of things
>> this week and
>> % > >it all piled up after I promised an end-of-week to you. I'll get the
>> % > >info to you as soon as I can.
>> % > >
>> % > >-Gary
>> % > >
>> % > >Philip Gust wrote:
>> % > >
>> % > > > Gary,
>> % > > >
>> % > > > Thanks for the update. Your description matches what we had in mind
>> % > > > for the keyset. I'm assuming that there would be a single USB cable
>> % > > > going from the unit to the computer. On the switch that
>> controls which
>> % > > > mode the unit is in, we could obviously add a physical
>> switch to the
>> % > > > unit. It might also be useful to be able to turn this on
>> % > > > programmatically, either by reinterpreting an existing
>> lock (e.g. num
>> % > > > lock) command or by defining a new one. Do you have any
>> thoughts about
>> % > > > this?
>> % > > >
>> % > > > As I mentioned to John, we have been invited to make a
>> formal proposal
>> % > > > to SRI to fund the development work for the reproduction
>> keyset. This
>> % > > > would be done to coincide with SRI's 50th anniversary in
>> October. I'd
>> % > > > like to have a proposal in to them with detailed technical specs by
>> % > > > April 15th or so your timing is great.
>> % > > >
>> % > > > Provided that SRI approves funding, we'll need to discuss
>> production
>> % > > > requirements to determine how large our initial run should be and
>> % > > > project total requirements. It's really hard to say at
>> this point. It
>> % > > > may be a limited run of 25-50 for use by the communities
>> involved in
>> % > > > the historical and new Hyperscope work. On the other hand, it could
>> % > > > catch the public fancy and several groups including SRI
>> and CHM might
>> % > > > decide to distribute them in their stores, in which case
>> the run might
>> % > > > be more like 250-500. It doesn't even make sense to take
>> the outside
>> % > > > temperature unless SRI agrees to fund the the development
>> work and we
>> % > > > decide the best way to float the cost of the first production run.
>> % > > > Hopefully we'll have a much better idea by mid-May.
>> % > > >
>> % > > > Thanks again, and I'll look forward to seeing your proposal. If you
>> % > > > want to talk in real-time, don't hesitate to give me a call.
>> % > > >
>> % > > > Best regards,
>> % > > >
>> % > > >
>> % > > > At 02:12 AM 4/4/2006, Gary Oliver wrote:
>> % > > >
>> % > > >> Philip,
>> % > > >>
>> % > > >> John Sechrest and I have been talking about the technical needs
>> % > > >> for your project and we are close to having a quotation ready for
>> % > > >> you that will cover the mechanical and electronic requirements.
>> % > > >>
>> % > > >> Basically our understanding is:
>> % > > >>
>> % > > >> The keyboard unit needs to supply standard "human interface"
>> % > > >> USB class connections and be able to multiplex a common USB
>> % > > >> mouse into the data stream. An internal hub will provide the
>> % > > >> mouse/keyboard multiplexing, with some local logic to redirect
>> % > > >> the mouse inputs through the control processor handling the
>> % > > >> keyboard functions.
>> % > > >>
>> % > > >> In one mode, the keyboard and mouse would be separate entities,
>> % > > >> with mouse event going through untouched. In another mode,
>> % > > >> the mouse buttons would be intercepted and used to augment
>> % > > >> the code sequence generated by the keyboard.
>> % > > >>
>> % > > >> This will require a small microprocessor with can act as both an
>> % > > >> HID input (for mouse redirection) and 2 HID outputs (to provide
>> % > > >> the keyboard and optional mouse channels.) It is unclear
>> % > > >> whether we would use an outboard steering logic to make the
>> % > > >> mouse pass through or to always process it in the
>> % > > >> microprocessor and pass it through "logically".
>> % > > >>
>> % > > >> After we finish parts definition and a preliminary circuit board
>> % > > >> design, we'll send it along for your consideration. We should be
>> % > > >> able to get this to you by the end of the week.
>> % > > >>
>> % > > >> Regards,
>> % > > >> Gary Oliver
>> % > > >> go@ao.com
>> % > > >> 541-754-1911
>> % > > >>
>> % > > >> Philip Gust wrote:
>> % > > >>
>> % > > >> > John,
>> % > > >> >
>> % > > >> > I'm following up with you about a quote for the NRE
>> and production
>> % > > >> > costs to create a new batch of keysets. Will you be
>> able to get us
>> % > > >> > something this week?
>> % > > >> >
>> % > > >> > At 04:08 PM 2/12/2006, Philip Gust wrote:
>> % > > >> >
>> % > > >> >> At 03:11 PM 2/12/2006, John Sechrest wrote:
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>> Philip Gust <gust@NouveauSystems.com> writes:
>> % > > >> >>>
>> % > > >> >>> % > One of the places we got stuck was the need for
>> a driver to
>> % > > >> >>> % > coordinate the 5 bits from one keyboard with the
>> 3 bits of the
>> % > > >> >>> mouse.
>> % > > >> >>> % > That was something that we did not process very well.
>> % > > >> >>>
>> % > > >> >>> % I'm a little confused by it myself. We wrote some
>> specialized Java
>> % > > >> >>> % code that processed input from the keyset, and
>> allowed Java to
>> % > > >> >>> % perform its normal mouse handling. I imagine that the same
>> % > > >> would be
>> % > > >> >>> % done for any other programming language. It's not
>> clear what the
>> % > > >> >>> % advantage would be of combining keyboard and mouse
>> handling into a
>> % > > >> >>> % single driver, especially in a windowed environment.
>> % > > >> >>>
>> % > > >> >>> Appearently NLS used the three mouse keys as modifiers,
>> % > > >> >>> so you could get 8 states from the right hand to modify
>> % > > >> >>> key stroke on the left hand...
>> % > > >> >>>
>> % > > >> >>> so if you have
>> % > > >> >>>
>> % > > >> >>> 10110 000
>> % > > >> >>> 10110 100
>> % > > >> >>> 10110 010
>> % > > >> >>> 10110 001
>> % > > >> >>>
>> % > > >> >>> The the five keys on the left are generating
>> different keys based
>> % > > >> >>> on the keys on the right side.
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >> I can see how there may be advantages to combining
>> mouse and keyboard
>> % > > >> >> input into a single driver. That way it can be used with any
>> % > > >> >> application. The challenge I can foresee is trying to
>> do that under
>> % > > >> >> multiple OSes and their window system environments,
>> and making it
>> % > > >> >> user or application configurable. It would also be
>> nice for such a
>> % > > >> >> driver provide a way to emulate a keyset/mouse combo
>> using a standard
>> % > > >> >> keyboard/mouse with an appropriate modifier (similar
>> to an embedded
>> % > > >> >> numeric keypad using the numlock key)
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >> Up to now we've been treating the "vintage" keyset as
>> an auxiliary
>> % > > >> >> input device, and allowing the AugTerm application to
>> read the device
>> % > > >> >> through a set of APIs and interpret keypad/mouse
>> input. For example,
>> % > > >> >> on Linux, the vintage keypad appear as a USB joystick
>> and we read it
>> % > > >> >> through /dev/input/js0. The advantage is that we can leverage
>> % > > >> >> existing drivers on various OSes.
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >> There's also a separate question of what type of USB device the
>> % > > >> >> keyset should identify itself as, and if that should
>> be one of the
>> % > > >> >> standard types then which one.
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>> % > It is possible that Gary might be persuadable to
>> do it off the
>> % > > >> >>> clock.
>> % > > >> >>> % > However, I do not see that happening on the time
>> schedule you
>> % > > >> >>> % > are laying out. I will ask gary tomorrow if the
>> things that he
>> % > > >> >>> % > is interested in stepping up to this project by
>> end of May or
>> % > > >> >>> % > not.
>> % > > >> >>>
>> % > > >> >>> % Thanks for taking this to them. There are certain
>> promotional
>> % > > >> >>> % opportunities that AO might be able to take
>> advantage of were
>> % > > >> it to
>> % > > >> >>> % do this on a pro-bono basis. However, I understand about the
>> % > > >> funding
>> % > > >> >>> % issue as well.
>> % > > >> >>>
>> % > > >> >>> Yes, there are some wins.
>> % > > >> >>>
>> % > > >> >>>
>> % > > >> >>> % In that case, could you find out what it would cost
>> % > > >> >>> % to get something ready to bid out for
>> manufacturing in May or
>> % > > >> June by
>> % > > >> >>> % completing the hardware and electrical design, and
>> building a
>> % > > >> >>> % prototype?
>> % > > >> >>>
>> % > > >> >>> Yes, I can get Gary to put together a quote for
>> putting together
>> % > > >> >>> 12 units. Is that the number that you want?
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >> I'd suggest breaking the quote down into two parts.
>> One is the NRE
>> % > > >> >> required to get it ready for manufacturing. The other
>> is the cost of
>> % > > >> >> manufacturing certain numbers of units. It's hard to
>> say how many we
>> % > > >> >> may need over time. As more people use the restored NLS/Augment
>> % > > >> >> system or the next generation system being planned,
>> they may want to
>> % > > >> >> have a keyset. Some people may also want one purely
>> as a collectable.
>> % > > >> >> In that case, we would like to be able to sell them
>> one. I recommend
>> % > > >> >> quoting an initial 12, and then incremental units of
>> 48 keysets (or
>> % > > >> >> whatever volume makes sense).
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>> % We can probably get someone to do the drivers on a
>> % > > >> >>> % volunteer basis if you can take care of the
>> hardware end. I'd
>> % > > >> expect
>> % > > >> >>> % that if we found funding, this would be work for hire that
>> % > > >> would be
>> % > > >> >>> % whoever funded it.
>> % > > >> >>>
>> % > > >> >>>
>> % > > >> >>> You will have to help me constrain the project some.
>> % > > >> >>> Do you want us to replicate directly what is there?
>> % > > >> >>> or do you want us to make some optimization for price?
>> % > > >> >>> Or do you want us to make any evolutionary steps for it?
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >> Optimizing for price would be fine. It would be great
>> if we could
>> % > > >> >> retain the look and feel of the original, for those
>> who may want one
>> % > > >> >> as an historical artifact. No need, though, to go
>> through the effort
>> % > > >> >> of a 15-pin analog output that must be converted to a
>> game port and
>> % > > >> >> again to a USB interface, for example. As to what
>> type of USB device
>> % > > >> >> it would appear as, we'll need to get a bit of a
>> technical discussion
>> % > > >> >> going on that.
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>> % I'll hope to hear from you again in the next few days.
>> % > > >> >>>
>> % > > >> >>> I will talk to gary on monday and try to have you some
>> % > > >> >>> details with in a day or so.
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >> Thanks!
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>> -----
>> % > > >> >>> John Sechrest . Helping people use
>> % > > >> >>> . computers and the Internet
>> % > > >> >>> . more effectively
>> % > > >> >>> .
>> % > > >> >>> . Internet: sechrest@peak.org
>> % > > >> >>> .
>> % > > >> >>> . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >> Philip Gust
>> % > > >> >> Nouveau Systems, Inc.
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >> phone: +1 650 961-7992
>> % > > >> >> fax: +1 520 843-7217
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >>
>> % > > >> >> mailto: gust@NouveauSystems.com
>> % > > >> >
>> % > > >> >
>> % > > >> >
>> % > > >> > Philip Gust
>> % > > >> > Nouveau Systems, Inc.
>> % > > >> >
>> % > > >> > phone: +1 650 961-7992
>> % > > >> > fax: +1 520 843-7217
>> % > > >> >
>> % > > >> >
>> % > > >> > mailto: gust@NouveauSystems.com
>> % > > >
>> % > > >
>> % > > >
>> % > > > Philip Gust
>> % > > > Nouveau Systems, Inc.
>> % > > > 3120 De La Cruz Blvd., Suite 120
>> % > > > Santa Clara, CA 95054
>> % > > >
>> % > > > phone: +1 650 961-7992
>> % > > > fax: +1 520 843-7217
>> % > > >
>> % > > > mailto: gust@NouveauSystems.com
>> % > > >
>> % > > > Nouveau Systems products seamlessly integrate collaboration,
>> % > > > information management, processes automation, and capture of
>> % > > > mission-critical knowledge. To learn how Nouveau Systems
>> products can
>> % > > > help your organization drive innovation, visit:
>> % > > > http://www.NouveauSystems.com
>> % > > >
>> % >
>> % >
>> % >Philip Gust
>> % >Nouveau Systems, Inc.
>> % >3120 De La Cruz Blvd., Suite 120
>> % >Santa Clara, CA 95054
>> % >
>> % >phone: +1 650 961-7992
>> % >fax: +1 520 843-7217
>> % >
>> % >mailto: gust@NouveauSystems.com
>> % >
>> % >Nouveau Systems products seamlessly integrate collaboration,
>> % >information management, processes automation, and capture of
>> % >mission-critical knowledge. To learn how Nouveau Systems products
>> % >can help your organization drive innovation, visit:
>> % >http://www.NouveauSystems.com
>> % >
>> % >
>> % >
>> % >_________________________________________________________________
>> % >Message Archives: http://chm.cim3.net/forum/nls-technical/
>> % >Shared Files: http://chm.cim3.net/file/work/project/nls-restore/
>> % >Community Portal: http://www.computerhistory.org/
>> % >To Post: mailto:nls-technical@chm.cim3.net
>> % >Community Wiki: http://chm.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?NLS_Restoration
>> %
>> %
>> % Philip Gust
>> % Nouveau Systems, Inc.
>> % 3120 De La Cruz Blvd., Suite 120
>> % Santa Clara, CA 95054
>> %
>> % phone: +1 650 961-7992
>> % fax: +1 520 843-7217
>> %
>> % mailto: gust@NouveauSystems.com
>> %
>> % Nouveau Systems products seamlessly integrate collaboration,
>> % information management, processes automation, and capture of
>> % mission-critical knowledge. To learn how Nouveau Systems products
>> % can help your organization drive innovation, visit:
>> % http://www.NouveauSystems.com
>> %
>> %
>>
>>-----
>>John Sechrest . Helping people use
>> . computers and the Internet
>> . more effectively
>> .
>> . Internet: sechrest@peak.org
>> .
>> .
>> http://www.peak.org/~sechrest
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Message Archives: http://chm.cim3.net/forum/nls-technical/
>>Shared Files: http://chm.cim3.net/file/work/project/nls-restore/
>>Community Portal: http://www.computerhistory.org/
>>To Post: mailto:nls-technical@chm.cim3.net
>>Community Wiki: http://chm.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?NLS_Restoration
>
>
>Philip Gust
>Nouveau Systems, Inc.
>3120 De La Cruz Blvd., Suite 120
>Santa Clara, CA 95054
>
>phone: +1 650 961-7992
>fax: +1 520 843-7217
>
>mailto: gust@NouveauSystems.com
>
>Nouveau Systems products seamlessly integrate collaboration,
>information management, processes automation, and capture of
>mission-critical knowledge. To learn how Nouveau Systems products
>can help your organization drive innovation, visit:
>http://www.NouveauSystems.com (03)
Philip Gust
Nouveau Systems, Inc.
3120 De La Cruz Blvd., Suite 120
Santa Clara, CA 95054 (04)
phone: +1 650 961-7992
fax: +1 520 843-7217 (05)
mailto: gust@NouveauSystems.com (06)
Nouveau Systems products seamlessly integrate collaboration,
information management, processes automation, and capture of
mission-critical knowledge. To learn how Nouveau Systems products
can help your organization drive innovation, visit:
http://www.NouveauSystems.com (07)
_________________________________________________________________
Message Archives: http://chm.cim3.net/forum/nls-technical/
Shared Files: http://chm.cim3.net/file/work/project/nls-restore/
Community Portal: http://www.computerhistory.org/
To Post: mailto:nls-technical@chm.cim3.net
Community Wiki: http://chm.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?NLS_Restoration (08)
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