Hi Philip, (01)
I have a first pass from gary for the hardware and the software.
I would like to talk to you on the phone abuot things. (02)
I am at Innotech all day tomorrow and at the coast most of friday. (03)
Is this something that can wait a few days, or do we need to squeeze it
in to the current flow? (04)
Philip Gust <gust@NouveauSystems.com> writes: (05)
% Gary,
%
% I hope that things aren't as hectic for you now. I'm planning out the
% next couple weeks of work on the project, and wanted to know when you
% might have the detailed technical proposal and quote ready. I'd like
% to include this information in the proposal to SRI. Also, please let
% me know whether my latest responses made sense, or whether we should
% try to have a live conversation to hash out these technical
% points. I can be available nearly any time at your convenience.
%
% At 03:59 PM 4/7/2006, Philip Gust wrote:
% >Gary,
% >
% >Thanks for the update. Customers can be such pesky creatures!
% >
% >At 02:58 PM 4/7/2006, Gary Oliver wrote:
% > >Unfortantely I have exhausted my time this week. We had an unscheduled
% > >visit from a customer that took an extra three days this week and I just
% > >ran out of time. I have most of what I need to finish a quote, but
% > >haven't yet been able to meet with the design engineer responsible for
% > >the electronics. It will be the first thing I do next week.
% > >
% > >Regarding your questions about the USB cabling and switching: Our
% > >current plans are for a single cable from the device to the computer.
% > >This can be accomplished using an internal physical hub (ic) or through
% > >a software "hub", depending on the choice of devices used to implement
% > >the USB. My understanding is that you want to plug a mouse into the
% > >device and the device into the computer. This will require the device to
% > >accept an HID input mouse connection and then route the data as
% > >appropriate to either the internal state machine or through to the
% > >computer over the mouse "device" on the "hub." Your description of a
% > >"num lock" would imply we also plug in a normal keyboard? Or are you
% > >referring to a keyboard action on the chording device?
% >
% >On switching keyboard modes, we'd have to find an unused chord /mouse
% >combination to switch between standard and Augment
% >modes. Unfortunately, there are very few combinations that are not
% >already used by Augment (e.g. Keyset: XXXXX, Mouse: 00X, or Keyset
% >:?????, Mouse: 110 or 111 -- see
% >http://chm.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?NlsTechnical/KeysetMap). I had
% >envisioned some kind of separate non-transmitting toggle button
% >(similar to the NUM LOCK on a standard keyboard) to control this only
% >to make switching more obvious for users.
% >
% >My reference to allowing the mode to be toggled in software was based
% >on my understanding of standard keyboards, where the computer can
% >send commands to the keyboard, such as turning on the NUM
% >LOCK. Sorry that I didn't make that clear. I hadn't intend to add
% >reading input from a standard keyboard into the mix. This is
% >completely optional. A typical use case for this capability might be
% >to have The AugTerm application toggle this on/off when it
% >gains/looses focus. No big deal, though, to have the user toggle
% >this manually.
% >
% >For the standard keyboard, we'll also need to determine whether and
% >how to map chords/buttons to standard keys and combinations that
% >aren't possible otherwise, such as the control characters, edit keys,
% >etc. One idea would be to adopt Microsoft's keyboard conventions for
% >physically impaired users, such as sticky shift, etc. Jonathan and I
% >will discuss this issue when we meet next week. What ideas can you suggest?
% >
% >On the
% >
% > >Our interpretation from John was that we wanted to be able to filter
% > >mouse "keystrokes" as hints to the operating mode of the device. I
% > >wasn't aware we would need to interpret keyboard strokes as well.
% > >
% > >I do think it would be "cleaner" to avoid adding extra switches, so long
% > >as we can nail down what switch "gestures" we want to enable the
% > >appropriate state changes.
% > >
% > >
% > >Sorry for the delay. I realize this is crunching things for you.
% > >Unfortuantely, I no control over the scheduling of things this week and
% > >it all piled up after I promised an end-of-week to you. I'll get the
% > >info to you as soon as I can.
% > >
% > >-Gary
% > >
% > >Philip Gust wrote:
% > >
% > > > Gary,
% > > >
% > > > Thanks for the update. Your description matches what we had in mind
% > > > for the keyset. I'm assuming that there would be a single USB cable
% > > > going from the unit to the computer. On the switch that controls which
% > > > mode the unit is in, we could obviously add a physical switch to the
% > > > unit. It might also be useful to be able to turn this on
% > > > programmatically, either by reinterpreting an existing lock (e.g. num
% > > > lock) command or by defining a new one. Do you have any thoughts about
% > > > this?
% > > >
% > > > As I mentioned to John, we have been invited to make a formal proposal
% > > > to SRI to fund the development work for the reproduction keyset. This
% > > > would be done to coincide with SRI's 50th anniversary in October. I'd
% > > > like to have a proposal in to them with detailed technical specs by
% > > > April 15th or so your timing is great.
% > > >
% > > > Provided that SRI approves funding, we'll need to discuss production
% > > > requirements to determine how large our initial run should be and
% > > > project total requirements. It's really hard to say at this point. It
% > > > may be a limited run of 25-50 for use by the communities involved in
% > > > the historical and new Hyperscope work. On the other hand, it could
% > > > catch the public fancy and several groups including SRI and CHM might
% > > > decide to distribute them in their stores, in which case the run might
% > > > be more like 250-500. It doesn't even make sense to take the outside
% > > > temperature unless SRI agrees to fund the the development work and we
% > > > decide the best way to float the cost of the first production run.
% > > > Hopefully we'll have a much better idea by mid-May.
% > > >
% > > > Thanks again, and I'll look forward to seeing your proposal. If you
% > > > want to talk in real-time, don't hesitate to give me a call.
% > > >
% > > > Best regards,
% > > >
% > > >
% > > > At 02:12 AM 4/4/2006, Gary Oliver wrote:
% > > >
% > > >> Philip,
% > > >>
% > > >> John Sechrest and I have been talking about the technical needs
% > > >> for your project and we are close to having a quotation ready for
% > > >> you that will cover the mechanical and electronic requirements.
% > > >>
% > > >> Basically our understanding is:
% > > >>
% > > >> The keyboard unit needs to supply standard "human interface"
% > > >> USB class connections and be able to multiplex a common USB
% > > >> mouse into the data stream. An internal hub will provide the
% > > >> mouse/keyboard multiplexing, with some local logic to redirect
% > > >> the mouse inputs through the control processor handling the
% > > >> keyboard functions.
% > > >>
% > > >> In one mode, the keyboard and mouse would be separate entities,
% > > >> with mouse event going through untouched. In another mode,
% > > >> the mouse buttons would be intercepted and used to augment
% > > >> the code sequence generated by the keyboard.
% > > >>
% > > >> This will require a small microprocessor with can act as both an
% > > >> HID input (for mouse redirection) and 2 HID outputs (to provide
% > > >> the keyboard and optional mouse channels.) It is unclear
% > > >> whether we would use an outboard steering logic to make the
% > > >> mouse pass through or to always process it in the
% > > >> microprocessor and pass it through "logically".
% > > >>
% > > >> After we finish parts definition and a preliminary circuit board
% > > >> design, we'll send it along for your consideration. We should be
% > > >> able to get this to you by the end of the week.
% > > >>
% > > >> Regards,
% > > >> Gary Oliver
% > > >> go@ao.com
% > > >> 541-754-1911
% > > >>
% > > >> Philip Gust wrote:
% > > >>
% > > >> > John,
% > > >> >
% > > >> > I'm following up with you about a quote for the NRE and production
% > > >> > costs to create a new batch of keysets. Will you be able to get us
% > > >> > something this week?
% > > >> >
% > > >> > At 04:08 PM 2/12/2006, Philip Gust wrote:
% > > >> >
% > > >> >> At 03:11 PM 2/12/2006, John Sechrest wrote:
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>> Philip Gust <gust@NouveauSystems.com> writes:
% > > >> >>>
% > > >> >>> % > One of the places we got stuck was the need for a driver to
% > > >> >>> % > coordinate the 5 bits from one keyboard with the 3 bits of the
% > > >> >>> mouse.
% > > >> >>> % > That was something that we did not process very well.
% > > >> >>>
% > > >> >>> % I'm a little confused by it myself. We wrote some specialized
Java
% > > >> >>> % code that processed input from the keyset, and allowed Java to
% > > >> >>> % perform its normal mouse handling. I imagine that the same
% > > >> would be
% > > >> >>> % done for any other programming language. It's not clear what the
% > > >> >>> % advantage would be of combining keyboard and mouse handling
into a
% > > >> >>> % single driver, especially in a windowed environment.
% > > >> >>>
% > > >> >>> Appearently NLS used the three mouse keys as modifiers,
% > > >> >>> so you could get 8 states from the right hand to modify
% > > >> >>> key stroke on the left hand...
% > > >> >>>
% > > >> >>> so if you have
% > > >> >>>
% > > >> >>> 10110 000
% > > >> >>> 10110 100
% > > >> >>> 10110 010
% > > >> >>> 10110 001
% > > >> >>>
% > > >> >>> The the five keys on the left are generating different keys based
% > > >> >>> on the keys on the right side.
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >> I can see how there may be advantages to combining mouse and
keyboard
% > > >> >> input into a single driver. That way it can be used with any
% > > >> >> application. The challenge I can foresee is trying to do that under
% > > >> >> multiple OSes and their window system environments, and making it
% > > >> >> user or application configurable. It would also be nice for such a
% > > >> >> driver provide a way to emulate a keyset/mouse combo using a
standard
% > > >> >> keyboard/mouse with an appropriate modifier (similar to an embedded
% > > >> >> numeric keypad using the numlock key)
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >> Up to now we've been treating the "vintage" keyset as an auxiliary
% > > >> >> input device, and allowing the AugTerm application to read the
device
% > > >> >> through a set of APIs and interpret keypad/mouse input. For
example,
% > > >> >> on Linux, the vintage keypad appear as a USB joystick and we read
it
% > > >> >> through /dev/input/js0. The advantage is that we can leverage
% > > >> >> existing drivers on various OSes.
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >> There's also a separate question of what type of USB device the
% > > >> >> keyset should identify itself as, and if that should be one of the
% > > >> >> standard types then which one.
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>> % > It is possible that Gary might be persuadable to do it off the
% > > >> >>> clock.
% > > >> >>> % > However, I do not see that happening on the time schedule you
% > > >> >>> % > are laying out. I will ask gary tomorrow if the things that he
% > > >> >>> % > is interested in stepping up to this project by end of May or
% > > >> >>> % > not.
% > > >> >>>
% > > >> >>> % Thanks for taking this to them. There are certain promotional
% > > >> >>> % opportunities that AO might be able to take advantage of were
% > > >> it to
% > > >> >>> % do this on a pro-bono basis. However, I understand about the
% > > >> funding
% > > >> >>> % issue as well.
% > > >> >>>
% > > >> >>> Yes, there are some wins.
% > > >> >>>
% > > >> >>>
% > > >> >>> % In that case, could you find out what it would cost
% > > >> >>> % to get something ready to bid out for manufacturing in May or
% > > >> June by
% > > >> >>> % completing the hardware and electrical design, and building a
% > > >> >>> % prototype?
% > > >> >>>
% > > >> >>> Yes, I can get Gary to put together a quote for putting together
% > > >> >>> 12 units. Is that the number that you want?
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >> I'd suggest breaking the quote down into two parts. One is the NRE
% > > >> >> required to get it ready for manufacturing. The other is the cost
of
% > > >> >> manufacturing certain numbers of units. It's hard to say how many
we
% > > >> >> may need over time. As more people use the restored NLS/Augment
% > > >> >> system or the next generation system being planned, they may want
to
% > > >> >> have a keyset. Some people may also want one purely as a
collectable.
% > > >> >> In that case, we would like to be able to sell them one. I
recommend
% > > >> >> quoting an initial 12, and then incremental units of 48 keysets (or
% > > >> >> whatever volume makes sense).
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>> % We can probably get someone to do the drivers on a
% > > >> >>> % volunteer basis if you can take care of the hardware end. I'd
% > > >> expect
% > > >> >>> % that if we found funding, this would be work for hire that
% > > >> would be
% > > >> >>> % whoever funded it.
% > > >> >>>
% > > >> >>>
% > > >> >>> You will have to help me constrain the project some.
% > > >> >>> Do you want us to replicate directly what is there?
% > > >> >>> or do you want us to make some optimization for price?
% > > >> >>> Or do you want us to make any evolutionary steps for it?
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >> Optimizing for price would be fine. It would be great if we could
% > > >> >> retain the look and feel of the original, for those who may want
one
% > > >> >> as an historical artifact. No need, though, to go through the
effort
% > > >> >> of a 15-pin analog output that must be converted to a game port and
% > > >> >> again to a USB interface, for example. As to what type of USB
device
% > > >> >> it would appear as, we'll need to get a bit of a technical
discussion
% > > >> >> going on that.
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>> % I'll hope to hear from you again in the next few days.
% > > >> >>>
% > > >> >>> I will talk to gary on monday and try to have you some
% > > >> >>> details with in a day or so.
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >> Thanks!
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>> -----
% > > >> >>> John Sechrest . Helping people use
% > > >> >>> . computers and the Internet
% > > >> >>> . more effectively
% > > >> >>> .
% > > >> >>> . Internet: sechrest@peak.org
% > > >> >>> .
% > > >> >>> . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >> Philip Gust
% > > >> >> Nouveau Systems, Inc.
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >> phone: +1 650 961-7992
% > > >> >> fax: +1 520 843-7217
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >>
% > > >> >> mailto: gust@NouveauSystems.com
% > > >> >
% > > >> >
% > > >> >
% > > >> > Philip Gust
% > > >> > Nouveau Systems, Inc.
% > > >> >
% > > >> > phone: +1 650 961-7992
% > > >> > fax: +1 520 843-7217
% > > >> >
% > > >> >
% > > >> > mailto: gust@NouveauSystems.com
% > > >
% > > >
% > > >
% > > > Philip Gust
% > > > Nouveau Systems, Inc.
% > > > 3120 De La Cruz Blvd., Suite 120
% > > > Santa Clara, CA 95054
% > > >
% > > > phone: +1 650 961-7992
% > > > fax: +1 520 843-7217
% > > >
% > > > mailto: gust@NouveauSystems.com
% > > >
% > > > Nouveau Systems products seamlessly integrate collaboration,
% > > > information management, processes automation, and capture of
% > > > mission-critical knowledge. To learn how Nouveau Systems products can
% > > > help your organization drive innovation, visit:
% > > > http://www.NouveauSystems.com
% > > >
% >
% >
% >Philip Gust
% >Nouveau Systems, Inc.
% >3120 De La Cruz Blvd., Suite 120
% >Santa Clara, CA 95054
% >
% >phone: +1 650 961-7992
% >fax: +1 520 843-7217
% >
% >mailto: gust@NouveauSystems.com
% >
% >Nouveau Systems products seamlessly integrate collaboration,
% >information management, processes automation, and capture of
% >mission-critical knowledge. To learn how Nouveau Systems products
% >can help your organization drive innovation, visit:
% >http://www.NouveauSystems.com
% >
% >
% >
% >_________________________________________________________________
% >Message Archives: http://chm.cim3.net/forum/nls-technical/
% >Shared Files: http://chm.cim3.net/file/work/project/nls-restore/
% >Community Portal: http://www.computerhistory.org/
% >To Post: mailto:nls-technical@chm.cim3.net
% >Community Wiki: http://chm.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?NLS_Restoration
%
%
% Philip Gust
% Nouveau Systems, Inc.
% 3120 De La Cruz Blvd., Suite 120
% Santa Clara, CA 95054
%
% phone: +1 650 961-7992
% fax: +1 520 843-7217
%
% mailto: gust@NouveauSystems.com
%
% Nouveau Systems products seamlessly integrate collaboration,
% information management, processes automation, and capture of
% mission-critical knowledge. To learn how Nouveau Systems products
% can help your organization drive innovation, visit:
% http://www.NouveauSystems.com
%
% (06)
-----
John Sechrest . Helping people use
. computers and the Internet
. more effectively
.
. Internet: sechrest@peak.org
.
. http://www.peak.org/~sechrest (07)
_________________________________________________________________
Message Archives: http://chm.cim3.net/forum/nls-technical/
Shared Files: http://chm.cim3.net/file/work/project/nls-restore/
Community Portal: http://www.computerhistory.org/
To Post: mailto:nls-technical@chm.cim3.net
Community Wiki: http://chm.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?NLS_Restoration (08)
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